1008: Toby

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1008: Toby

Postby maarvarq » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:45 am

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Lily's cheerful whimsicality continues to delight. Also, the name "Toby" does seem to be a bit of an odd choice for a girl. All the Tobys I've known (two of them choir conductors, weirdly) have been male.
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Re: 1008: Toby

Postby Darkfeather21 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:55 am

Toby is short for Tobias. It is typically a male name.

In the 1930s and 40s, however, there was a sudden updraft in the female usage of the name, due in entirety to the actress Toby Wing.
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Re: 1008: Toby

Postby mustang6172 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:41 pm

Not sure what is douchier: gender neutral baby, or making people take their shoes off to attend a party.
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Re: 1008: Toby

Postby CaptainCerberus » Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:49 pm

mustang6172 wrote:Not sure what is douchier: gender neutral baby, or making people take their shoes off to attend a party.


Many guests will ask if they should take off their shoes in the house, if they notice the hosts not wearing any. It doesn't have to be forced.

(I don't see what's wrong with forcing it anyway.)
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Re: 1008: Toby

Postby KrenkoMobBoss » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:25 pm

mustang6172 wrote:Not sure what is douchier: gender neutral baby, or making people take their shoes off to attend a party.

Care to elaborate? On either of those?
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Re: 1008: Toby

Postby Killjoy » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:35 pm

Ah, the unaware irony that is Lily...
Likes his women like he likes his coffee... a little sweet, a little spicy, a little strong, a little earthy, a little smokey, totally honest, and maybe a little offended by being compared to a beverage.
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Re: 1008: Toby

Postby ren » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:01 am

Nicole's just having a bit of fun with Lily. Toby is, as Nicole correctly predicted, biologically female. Whether or not Toby psychologically identifies as female will have to wait a few years until they start talking.


I dig the gender neutral balloons, and I get that Nicole is trying to be progressive and accepting here, but playing identity games is psychologically damaging to the kid.

If you ask a two year old to determine their gender, they'll assume that liking batman and baseball = boy, liking pink and glitter = girl. A toddler can't navigate the intricacies of sex and gender. If Toby enjoys rough housing more than princess dresses at the age of five and identifies as a boy, she can't understand she's also signing up for a lifetime of medical intervention.

Really, Nicole should tell her, "You're a girl, and you can love any person you choose, choose any name you want, wear whatever type of clothes you want, and play with any kind of toy. Nothing you choose makes you more or less of a girl, and no one should make you feel lesser for it. "
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Re: 1008: Toby

Postby KrenkoMobBoss » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:00 am

ren wrote:
Nicole's just having a bit of fun with Lily. Toby is, as Nicole correctly predicted, biologically female. Whether or not Toby psychologically identifies as female will have to wait a few years until they start talking.


I dig the gender neutral balloons, and I get that Nicole is trying to be progressive and accepting here, but playing identity games is psychologically damaging to the kid.

If you ask a two year old to determine their gender, they'll assume that liking batman and baseball = boy, liking pink and glitter = girl. A toddler can't navigate the intricacies of sex and gender. If Toby enjoys rough housing more than princess dresses at the age of five and identifies as a boy, she can't understand she's also signing up for a lifetime of medical intervention.

Really, Nicole should tell her, "You're a girl, and you can love any person you choose, choose any name you want, wear whatever type of clothes you want, and play with any kind of toy. Nothing you choose makes you more or less of a girl, and no one should make you feel lesser for it. "

Sounds like you're saying that, given the opportunity to choose, one would be foolish for choosing to be transgender, under any circumstances. An unusual case for a gender is fine, but transgender is foolish, it's begging for punishment.

Now, I can't prove you wrong on that, certainly not. But it's a strikingly similar argument to Pascal's Wager, I.E. perfectly logical in theory, completely ignores the concept of "human emotions" in practice.

Or even simpler argument: giving your child gender neutral toys and clothes and stuff isn't abuse or neglect. Failing to show them love or tend to their needs, or taking deliberate action to harm them, that is abuse and neglect. The Butterfly Effect is garbage; green clothes and genderless toys won't ruin a child.

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Re: 1008: Toby

Postby Glundyn » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:38 am

I dunno, telling a child who has no wot of the world that they can be either A with X implications or B with Y implications seems a tad limiting and counter-progressive to me when you consider the alternative of "You're human, this is your current shape, you can like and feel whatever you want so long as you respect others' boundaries and clearly state your own"
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Re: 1008: Toby

Postby ren » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:33 am

Krenko I think you misunderstand. I'm not saying Nicole shouldn't give her kid "gender neutral" toys and clothes. I'm saying all kid's toys and clothes should be considered gender neutral:

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