1010: Baking

Discussion related to Leftover Soup

Re: 1010: Baking

Postby Piomicron » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:59 am

@Simuran:

You do know there is no marriage in heaven, right?

29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’[b]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”


She's worried about them going to different destinations after dying, not not having a husband in heaven.
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Re: 1010: Baking

Postby Killjoy » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:25 pm

And yet many people believe something else based on other parts of the same book.

Oh well. It's all pointless theology, based on stuff supposedly said by one person, written by people who'd never met him, in the name of people who had.
Likes his women like he likes his coffee... a little sweet, a little spicy, a little strong, a little earthy, a little smokey, totally honest, and maybe a little offended by being compared to a beverage.
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Re: 1010: Baking

Postby Piomicron » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:29 pm

Killjoy wrote:And yet many people believe something else based on other parts of the same book.

Oh well. It's all pointless theology, based on stuff supposedly said by one person, written by people who'd never met him, in the name of people who had.


Actually... somewhere between 15%-50% of the world would say that the Bible is the most pointful theology in the world, and that it is a whole lot more pointful than everything else humans think about.

Two of the four people who wrote about Jesus had actually met him for a significant chunk of his life, including Matthew, who I cited.

Given that he, as well as at least nine other original disciples were martyred because they wouldn't take back what they did say about this man you consider insignificant, as well as hundreds of thousands of others on the word of people like the disciples, and people who'd experienced miracles, bearing in mind they died in particularly painful ways, you really don't have a leg to stand on.
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Re: 1010: Baking

Postby Killjoy » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:00 pm

Piomicron wrote:
Killjoy wrote:And yet many people believe something else based on other parts of the same book.

Oh well. It's all pointless theology, based on stuff supposedly said by one person, written by people who'd never met him, in the name of people who had.


Actually... somewhere between 15%-50% of the world would say that the Bible is the most pointful theology in the world, and that it is a whole lot more pointful than everything else humans think about.

Two of the four people who wrote about Jesus had actually met him for a significant chunk of his life, including Matthew, who I cited.

Given that he, as well as at least nine other original disciples were martyred because they wouldn't take back what they did say about this man you consider insignificant, as well as hundreds of thousands of others on the word of people like the disciples, and people who'd experienced miracles, bearing in mind they died in particularly painful ways, you really don't have a leg to stand on.


People have died for other beliefs as well, that's hardly proof of anything other than that people will die for stuff.

Reliable scholarship disagrees entirely with the notion that anything in the NT was written by anyone who ever actually met "Jesus".
Likes his women like he likes his coffee... a little sweet, a little spicy, a little strong, a little earthy, a little smokey, totally honest, and maybe a little offended by being compared to a beverage.
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Re: 1010: Baking

Postby Piomicron » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:40 am

People will die for things, true, but how many people will die instead of admitting they made up the stuff they said about their mentor? When 11/12 people do that, as well as legions of people shortly afterwards, you start to see a trend.

That aside, which scholars are you referring to specifically? 'Reliable scholarship' also vouches for traditional authorship.
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Re: 1010: Baking

Postby Killjoy » Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:25 pm

Piomicron wrote:People will die for things, true, but how many people will die instead of admitting they made up the stuff they said about their mentor? When 11/12 people do that, as well as legions of people shortly afterwards, you start to see a trend.


Consider the number of Gnostics, Arians, and Cathars who all died (at the hands of their fellow Christians) for what they believed in.

Consider the number of Muslims who've died rather than renounce their faith.


Piomicron wrote:That aside, which scholars are you referring to specifically? 'Reliable scholarship' also vouches for traditional authorship.


Mark was the earliest gospel written, and was clearly written by someone utterly unfamiliar with Jewish life and custom, as late as 80 CE. Taken together this leaves almost no chance that the author had met Yeshua ("Jesus").

Matthew borrows heavily from Mark, so had to be written later, and was written after the fall of the temple, so no sooner than 70 CE and as late as 100 CE. It wasn't until about 150 CE that the name "Matthew" was even associated with this document.

Luke borrows less heavily from Mark, but also cites the Jewish writer Josephus, so it had to be written after 93 CE.

John also had to be written after 93 CE.

And... all four books were anonymous until about 180 CE or so, when authorship was "assigned". All are written in the 3rd person, none of them contains eye witness accounts, or claims to have been written by a witness to the events or even someone who had met an eyewitness.
Likes his women like he likes his coffee... a little sweet, a little spicy, a little strong, a little earthy, a little smokey, totally honest, and maybe a little offended by being compared to a beverage.
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Re: 1010: Baking

Postby Piomicron » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:17 am

Consider the number of Gnostics, Arians, and Cathars who all died (at the hands of their fellow Christians) for what they believed in.

Consider the number of Muslims who've died rather than renounce their faith.


People of a religious sect dying for their faith is not that rare. The conditions I described, however, are.

It wasn't until about 150 CE that the name "Matthew" was even associated with this document.


The earliest documental evidence we have accrediting the gospel to Matthew was from Papias, bishop of Hieropolis sometime in 120 AD.

All are written in the 3rd person, none of them contains eye witness accounts, or claims to have been written by a witness to the events or even someone who had met an eyewitness.


Though it's not necessarily that explicit, it is difficult to claim that these books were neither written by someone who'd experienced the events at the time, or at the least wanted to make out that they were.

Matthew was called Levi in gospels other than his own (or the one we ascribe to him), and many monetary details are provided, matching up nicely with his job as a tax collector.

Mark's gospel has much information that would be difficult to acquire if he did not know Simon Peter personally.

In the opening lines of Luke's gospel, it is admitted that the author is not an eyewitness. The detail and complexity suggests that it was written by someone with a very high level of education. Luke was a physician, therefore it is congruous that he would write it this way.

The fourth gospel indicates many times that the one writing it is an apostle:

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.


There is one disciple in particular, throughout the book, that is never referred to by name. He is explicitly mentioned to be at (as far as I can tell) all events described in this particular gospel where a few disciples go alone with Jesus. It is therefore no stretch of the imagination to imagine that he is the one writing.

The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.


One of them, the disciple whom Jesus loved, was reclining next to him.


When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman, here is your son,"


In addition, in Acts, John is often mentioned being with Peter, no other disciples mentioned.

The sheer amount of writing materials the gospels would have costed back then amount to roughly $16,000 of today's dollars. With projects that large, it is unlikely that the authorship would have been forgotten in living memory. The church also unanimously accepted those four authors, and indeed it seems strange that those four would be the ones they picked. Mark barely appears at all in any book of the New Testament, let alone the gospels in which there is one possible appearance. Given that his account derives heavily from Peter's own experience, it would give them more credibility if they assigned it to Peter. John makes some sense, but doesn't hold the same respect that Peter or James has.

So why is it, that instead of choosing, say, James, Peter, (insert Roman citizen who is an acceptable Jewish sect and a scholar of Greek here) and Andrew, did they unanimously choose Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?

Since these books were written in living memory, and early manuscripts would usually (or always) have the authors' names written on the first page or exterior, it's unlikely that they would have forgotten the authors that quickly.

So, it's actually quite likely that the four traditional authors at least wrote some or most of the books associated with them.
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