Legalise child pornography

Serious discussions on politics, religion, and the like.

Re: Legalise child pornography

Postby mendel » Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:11 pm

Bramble.Chappell wrote:I'm sure I'm not alone in the opinion that child pornography is in and of itself a form of child abuse (on top of the sexual abuse that is prerequisite to its creation), or at the very least an extreme violation of privacy. I have a very negative opinion of pornography in the first place (I feel that sexual objectification of human beings is a very serious problem in society) but I think my position is more than just bias. [..]

I see where you are coming from.

I wonder: currently pornography encompasses writings and drawings - with those, privacy concerns are usually not an issue.
Also, even material that does depict a healthy human relationship may be classified as pornography, that's not really a criterium in the legal sense.
What is your stance on books or pictures (or even comics or webcomics such as Oglaf (.com) or Sexy Losers) that are designed to arouse?
Would this change if it involved children?
Is it ok to put a taboo on children's sexual experiences?
What the heck kind of religion do you guys think I follow? (#381)
User avatar
mendel
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:00 pm
Location: German North Sea Coast

Re: Legalise child pornography

Postby Alex Starkiller » Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:10 pm

snowyowl wrote:What's your opinion on this matter, Alex? You haven't said.

I don't want to get drawn into a debate. Suffice it to say I can't imagine drawn porn being "bad" and I can't imagine real porn not involving abuse.
Down dirty bitches, becoming the witches
Grindin' up and down 'cause they grantin' all my wishes
Bring out all my aces like this game was Poker
Banish all the witches, thank you based Madoka!
"Ante Up" - ForeverPandering
User avatar
Alex Starkiller
 
Posts: 1649
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Mitakihara Town, making all sorts of contracts

Re: Legalise child pornography

Postby Bramble.Chappell » Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:26 pm

mendel wrote:I wonder: currently pornography encompasses writings and drawings - with those, privacy concerns are usually not an issue.
Also, even material that does depict a healthy human relationship may be classified as pornography, that's not really a criterium in the legal sense.
What is your stance on books or pictures (or even comics or webcomics such as Oglaf (.com) or Sexy Losers) that are designed to arouse?
Would this change if it involved children?
Is it ok to put a taboo on children's sexual experiences?


Drawn imagery and literary material I will acknowledge as being a different matter. Its creation does not normally* involve the abuse of a human being. The greatest part of my objection to pornography in general is a non-issue with them. As Alex said, I am very much a "prude". (I have consistently failed to take offense at the appellation, even when it was actually intended to cause offense. I think on some level, it sounds to me as if someone is accusing me of prudence, which is more like undeserved praise than an insult.) I have an emotional bias here, that I'm trying to ignore. I'm uncomfortable answering these questions, because the issue at hand for me is pretty much subsumed by the larger issue of sexual morality in general, which makes me feel like I'm straying from the topic. (And probably irritating people with my extremely unpopular ideas about sexual morality.)

Simply put, I'm not sure that there is any moral difference between simply indulging in a mental sexual fantasy and reading written or drawn pornographic material. I do think that indulging such fantasies is unhealthy, and depending on the individual, it can very easily become a slippery slope. As to the question of whether it matter if a child is involved in purely fictional material, I'm not sure. It's really the question of whether or not viewing that specific material does anything to increase the likelihood that a person will engage in those behaviors in real life. Can rape fantasies contribute to an inclination to commit sexual assault in real life? But if a person indulges in such fantasies in the first place, does that mean that they already had such an inclination, or is it rather that they developed the fetish by first indulging in the fantasy? I'm sure the answer differs from person to person.

I'm having a hard time because it's becoming, for me "I believe X is wrong, but is this particular form of X worse?"

*I feel compelled to add the qualifier "normally" in this sentence, but I cannot come up with an adequate reason to do so. An irrational pessimistic impulse?

As for taboos on someone's experiences, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by a taboo? When I try to answer, I feel like I'm not answering the question you asked.
"If you could understand it, you wouldn't label it 'mad'."
Bramble.Chappell
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 6:22 pm

Re: Legalise child pornography

Postby snowyowl » Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:11 am

Bramble.Chappell wrote:(And probably irritating people with my extremely unpopular ideas about sexual morality.)
I'm not sure they're that unpopular, but this forum is generally... I'm not sure what word I'm looking for. Sex-positive? I imagine that all the people who read the comic and have strong opinions against sex will have been scared off by Maxine Hellenberger.

Bramble.Chappell wrote:It's really the question of whether or not viewing that specific material does anything to increase the likelihood that a person will engage in those behaviors in real life. Can rape fantasies contribute to an inclination to commit sexual assault in real life? But if a person indulges in such fantasies in the first place, does that mean that they already had such an inclination, or is it rather that they developed the fetish by first indulging in the fantasy? I'm sure the answer differs from person to person.
Recall that my original question was not whether porn (an CP) was bad, but whether it should be illegal. I believe it's a fairly subjective question to ask whether any action is "good" or "evil", and in most cases it's irrelevant. Actions that are bad for society in general, though, should be banned by law.

And the law doesn't have much precedent for banning things because they are the beginning of a slippery slope. (Possible exception: marijuana.) We don't ban skateboarding because it leads to graffiti. We don't ban pornography because it leads to sex.

Bramble.Chappell wrote:But if a person indulges in such fantasies in the first place, does that mean that they already had such an inclination, or is it rather that they developed the fetish by first indulging in the fantasy?
At the moment, common knowledge is that it's a bit of both that reinforce each other.

I'd also like to remind everyone that sex is necessary for the propagation of the human race, and if you think people can be made to have exclusively heterosexual vaginal sex and only for the purposes of procreation, you've got another think coming.
... in bed.
User avatar
snowyowl
 
Posts: 1175
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:05 pm

Re: Legalise child pornography

Postby Bramble.Chappell » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:24 am

Knew I'd go off in the wrong direction when I tried to reply, just wasn't sure where.

As a matter of law, even if getting rid of pornography is what's best for society, I sincerely doubt the difference made by "buckling down" on it legally would have even enough actual impact to be worth the effort. Maybe I'm just cynical. Culture itself would have to change- and radically so- to really improve that situation, I think.

For the record, I'd like to clarify my ideas of "sexual morality". I'm not convinced one way or another about homosexuality, I don't think it has to always be done for the purpose of reproduction. I do think it should be done only within marriage (which I believe is a spiritual phenomenon, dictated by neither human law nor religious ceremony) and that using it to hurt someone (or taking it in a way that hurts someone) is one of the worst perversions of something good that a human being is capable of.
"If you could understand it, you wouldn't label it 'mad'."
Bramble.Chappell
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 6:22 pm

Re: Legalise child pornography

Postby crayzz » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:38 pm

snowyowl wrote:Recall that my original question was not whether porn (an CP) was bad, but whether it should be illegal. I believe it's a fairly subjective question to ask whether any action is "good" or "evil", and in most cases it's irrelevant. Actions that are bad for society in general, though, should be banned by law.

And the law doesn't have much precedent for banning things because they are the beginning of a slippery slope. (Possible exception: marijuana.) We don't ban skateboarding because it leads to graffiti. We don't ban pornography because it leads to sex.


We ban CP because it inherently leads to violations of privacy. One must consent to having ones private image distributed (nudity and/or porn definitely apply). Children cannot legally consent, being underage and all. This stops the discussion, as far as I can tell. If you accept that humans have a right to privacy, there's no getting around it.

Yeah, porn is bad, but it's bad in the way that alcohol is - self-destructive and unhealthy to you with minimal effect on the people around you.


I'm assuming you mean it can be self destructive. It isn't always; Greta Christina, for instance, felt very much empowered about her stint as a porn actress, as have many other women.

Also, since the vast majority of porn follows extremely narrow normative stereotypes (many of which are downright misogynistic), the effects can certainly go beyond the actors and actresses themsleves.
crayzz
 
Posts: 925
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:34 am

Re: Legalise child pornography

Postby snowyowl » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:07 am

crayzz wrote:Also, since the vast majority of porn follows extremely narrow normative stereotypes (many of which are downright misogynistic), the effects can certainly go beyond the actors and actresses themselves.
Damn right.

crayzz wrote:We ban CP because it inherently leads to violations of privacy.
No, we ban CP because the production and distribution of CP involves child abuse. And because it's believed that people who view CP are more likely to abuse children - a reasonable enough belief though I can't find any figures right now.

Violations of privacy are not the main concern, and in fact it's quite the opposite: enforcing laws against CP requires monitoring of Internet traffic and violations of privacy.
... in bed.
User avatar
snowyowl
 
Posts: 1175
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:05 pm

Re: Legalise child pornography

Postby crayzz » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:33 pm

No, we ban CP because the production and distribution of CP involves child abuse. And because it's believed that people who view CP are more likely to abuse children - a reasonable enough belief though I can't find any figures right now.

Violations of privacy are not the main concern, and in fact it's quite the opposite: enforcing laws against CP requires monitoring of Internet traffic and violations of privacy.


Are we arguing about how it is done, or how it should be done? CP should be banned because it inherently violates the childs privacy, regardless of other reasons given.

And as far as I know, it isn't enforced by monitoring traffick of individuals, but by monitoring the traffick of the sites themselves (which leads them to the individuals).
crayzz
 
Posts: 925
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:34 am

Re: Legalise child pornography

Postby snowyowl » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:16 pm

crayzz wrote:Are we arguing about how it is done, or how it should be done? CP should be banned because it inherently violates the childs privacy, regardless of other reasons given.
... that's what I was trying to say. Carry on.
... in bed.
User avatar
snowyowl
 
Posts: 1175
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:05 pm

Re: Legalise child pornography

Postby Jynto » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:56 am

How does the law distinguish between actual child pornography and childhood photos in which the little boy or girl happens to be unclothed? Everyone is born naked, and people still videotape births. Can an ultrasound scan be pornographic? Has anyone ever been arrested for possessing a nude photo of himself*? That must have happened at least once.

*(or herself, but much less likely)
User avatar
Jynto
 
Posts: 100
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:58 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Serious Business

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest