I'm going to assign you a number.

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Re: I'm going to assign you a number.

Postby RyukaTana » Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:15 pm

I'm not about to argue this, my only 2 cents is that the entire economic system is moronic. The things humans will accept for 'convenience' is moronic. The things we simply look at and go, 'That's just how it is', are moronic.

There's really no fixing it... We can make it better, but people in general are too stupid to actually fix it. I'm not holding my breath for that to change.

Anyway, Tailsteak, I commiserate.
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Re: I'm going to assign you a number.

Postby Deepbluediver » Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:49 pm

snowyowl wrote:We mean that before the system is implemented, interested amateurs will be able to look over it and point out the most obvious and critical flaws.

It will also be harder for flaws to be exploited in secret by those in the know, thus breaking the cycle of poverty. Any glitches will either be fixed quickly or make the entire system obviously worthless - there won't be any "backdoors".

Who would administrate this system? Who would decide what goes into it and what weight each category receives?
And when some one inevitably disagrees and decides to make their own system the way they want, how do we decide which is the "right" version?
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Re: I'm going to assign you a number.

Postby snowyowl » Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:59 pm

Deepbluediver wrote:Who would administrate this system? Who would decide what goes into it and what weight each category receives?
And when some one inevitably disagrees and decides to make their own system the way they want, how do we decide which is the "right" version?
Well, how is this done today? Through ratings agencies, publicly traded or privately owned. The market decides which one is the best. I can't say it's the ideal solution, but I can't think of a better one.
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Re: I'm going to assign you a number.

Postby doctor100 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:36 pm

I need the practice. Let me blather a moment. I'll try to make it coherent.

It appears that no-one here likes this system. I myself did at one time have expended credit equal to 5 times my yearly income, with offers still coming. I declared bankruptcy a few years later.

First, ursury is a problem; when credit interest rates run between 5-35%, who wouldn't want a return rate of 10%+ on what they give out? Nearly every state in the Union placed a 7% ursury cap on lending, until the US Federalized the regulations.

The current Fed Reserve system encourages banks to operate below the mandated minimum reserve system. Hypothetically a bank is suppose to keep 10%-ish of the money it has lent out, on hand and in minimum reserve, to prevent a run. The Fed Rate is a loan for banks which no longer have that minimum amount on hand. The current "ursury" rate for banks which have neglected this requirement is less than 1%.

New money enters the economy by three major sources-Banks, Treasury department, and the Fed. We can eliminate the treasury, and we see banks under the direct supervision of the FED. Current policy encourages consumption, and lending, highly profitable for Financial institutions. There are no strings attached to 'recieving' more Fed money based on successful business loans, or other socially desirable outcomes. Hence, any loan at all will do when calculating profit.

Your Credit Score, the number assigned in the title, is meant to measure risk. Namely, the chance that you will pay (1) timely (2) in full. Long explanations short, a poor score leads to risk recovery in the form of high interest rate on credit. THIS IS A VICIOUS CYCLE. A untimely payment, with high interest rate, not only further prevents full payment, but also reduces resources available to the person to improve their income.

. . . so when you can get a lifetime of payments from one person, and no disincentive to do this an infinite number of times, who not do so, eh?

This consumer lending economy is fundamentally different from prior philosophies, which encouraged saving, which increased the bank's minimum reserve towards lending- lending to successful business models, which increased local wages, which increased savings . . .

In the days of local banking (back when states controlled the ursury rate), your saving balance, regular income, property valuations, and loans generally came from the same bank; that bank could do the ledger sheets on your risk without a credit score-only people involved in interstate commerce truly had to worry about reporting all their lending activity to a credit report agency.

This, however, is not yesteryear.

And, if we are going to play a game of making policy; first we have to know what we want.

What do we want?
Particularly considerign that so much of morality is emotional based 'not to hurt people' 'don't be mean' 'build community' 'listen' 'be humble', a logical answer doesn't present itself, the problems exist in an emotional framework.
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Re: I'm going to assign you a number.

Postby Horizon » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:26 am

The capacity to not die, for starters, and we'll figure it out from there.
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Re: I'm going to assign you a number.

Postby RyukaTana » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:55 pm

Horizon wrote:The capacity to not die, for starters, and we'll figure it out from there.


Oh snap!

No, but seriously, good answer Horizon. It really is the perfect comeback (to the credit system, I'm not presuming doctor is the 'villain' here). I mean, I think there's far more important things than just living, but definitely, when we're talking just from a fiscal standpoint, it's the first big step.
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Re: I'm going to assign you a number.

Postby Felblood » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:54 am

To be honest, I don't think the flaws in the credit tracking system are entirely the fault of banks, or even credit agencies.

Most of the problems can be attributed to one of three things:

1. Credit Advisers. Credit Advisers selfishly insist on being allowed to continue making a living, in a world where is would be better for everyone else if their position were made obsolete by good public education resources. That is to ice-cold harsh is is minty fresh, but it's true. It would be more cost effective to just raise taxes and provide everyone with a standard packet of credit education. Some highly educated people would lose their jobs. Some moderately educated people would get jobs. Fraud and general stupidity would be a bit harder. On the whole, I think it would benefit the nation in the long run.

2. The public not wanting their background tracked. The fact that it is so easy to assemble a background check on any random person with little more than a name and date of birth can be pretty scary. A steady diet of Terminator movies and Louis Lamour novels has every man in North America secretly telling himself that he could go off the grid and be a mysterious lone wolf, with no past and no name, if he really wanted to. 99.9999% this would not have been true anyway. The Credit industry didn't invade your privacy, they just killed your childhood dreams, with that ever aggravating light of truth. The truth is a fucking buzzkill.

3. The public for being so bleeding ignorant. My fellow Americans, in particular, can suck a giant dick over this one, for creating the two party system that both allows and keeps them so ignorant, and has no shut down funding for community action agencies, of the sort that would be teaching you about credit, if you knew enough to have them put into existence. It's really late at night and this is a sore issue for me, so this is overly confrontational, but if the extent of your credit knowledge came from a TV ad for a credit score, go fuck yourself. Managing your credit is not fundamentally different from balancing your checkbook, or virus scanning your computer; you owe it to yourself to learn how, before you try to actually do it, and until they start teaching this shit in High School, that means doing a little research. (BTW: an extra Fuck YOU! to anyone who is able to read this post, but does not have a virus scanner installed, and know what a criminal bot-net is. Seriously, stop reading this and fix both those problems before you use the internet to read the insane ramblings of a man from the internet)

Yes, there are a lot of barriers put in place by powerful lobbies, to prevent you from getting this information from anyone who isn't a licensed credit adviser. However, there are also a lot of ways to get the information you need from a real credit adviser, and not your uncle Joe, who worked at a bank in the 60s (and is the other reason you need a license to give credit advice. There is a LOT of outdated or straight-out wrong information floating out there.). They are in business to make money, and a lot of the reason they have to spend so much time and money on training is the system of lobbies their own industry created, but they do have jobs (for now) and they will expect you to pay them. HOWEVER-HOWEVER (or however squared) it's a really competitive market, and you owe it to yourself to shop around and do some research before you hand over you social security number and credit card information. Hell, you might actually have access to a complementary credit adviser hotline; lot's of fraud insurance programs and identity theft monitoring memberships include one in the package deal. Getting a basic level of credit competence doesn't mean getting your MBA, it just means investing the time to learn.

Like most research in the modern era, you should probably start at wikipedia (try here for a jumping off point:[url]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AnnualCreditReport.com[/url]), or ftc.gov domain (here's another good start: http://web.archive.org/web/20071221125910/http://ftc.gov/bcp/menus/consumer/credit/rights.shtm).

Hopefully, we all left today with our frustrations vented, and a new perspective on how to take control of our own lives.
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