The Cull.

Serious discussions on politics, religion, and the like.

Re: The Cull.

Postby mustang6172 » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:07 pm

I have two major ethics to apply to this.

1. No one has the right to end anyone else's life, even if to extend their own.
2. The only thing more noble than helping a stranger is self sacrifice.

The reasonable course of action is to give myself the kill token and give all the save tokens to random strangers.
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Re: The Cull.

Postby Alex Starkiller » Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:20 am

mustang6172 wrote:I have two major ethics to apply to this.

1. No one has the right to end anyone else's life, even if to extend their own.
2. The only thing more noble than helping a stranger is self sacrifice.

The reasonable course of action is to give myself the kill token and give all the save tokens to random strangers.

1. I cannot agree with that, personally. If I'm attacked by someone without cause, I will defend myself.
2. Self-sacrifice can often be pointless and stupid. It really depends.
HOWEVER, this is a unique situation. Unless I knew for sure I'd be handing out kill token to a bad, irredeemable person, I wouldn't bring myself to do it, and even then I'd probably feel terrible about it. Self-sacrifice here, while pointless on a grand scale, would likely be the right thing to do.
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Re: The Cull.

Postby luislsacc » Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:08 am

Alex Starkiller wrote:
mustang6172 wrote:I have two major ethics to apply to this.

1. No one has the right to end anyone else's life, even if to extend their own.
2. The only thing more noble than helping a stranger is self sacrifice.

The reasonable course of action is to give myself the kill token and give all the save tokens to random strangers.

1. I cannot agree with that, personally. If I'm attacked by someone without cause, I will defend myself.
2. Self-sacrifice can often be pointless and stupid. It really depends.
HOWEVER, this is a unique situation. Unless I knew for sure I'd be handing out kill token to a bad, irredeemable person, I wouldn't bring myself to do it, and even then I'd probably feel terrible about it. Self-sacrifice here, while pointless on a grand scale, would likely be the right thing to do.


I'm not sure on the rules, but wouldn't giving the same person a kill and a save token cancel each other out, which would eliminate the need for self-sacrifice?

And mustang, just out of curiosity, are you american? I say this because your first ethic rule coincides neatly with the principle found here, in the excellent webcomic Illustrated Guide to ( U.S.A.'s) Criminal Law ( read through 16 pages to get the full point). It's just that this principle, from where I'm standing, is completely bonkers. Ethical imperative (specific to my country at this time) the life of oneself is worth more to them than anyone else's, and the life of a loved one is worth more than that of a random stranger; therefore, if the sacrifice of another's life removes the immediate, certain and direct danger to your life or that of a loved one, it is justified, as one could not be expected to put the lives of others above their own.
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Re: The Cull.

Postby Bramble.Chappell » Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:14 pm

luislsacc wrote:
Alex Starkiller wrote:
mustang6172 wrote:I have two major ethics to apply to this.

1. No one has the right to end anyone else's life, even if to extend their own.
2. The only thing more noble than helping a stranger is self sacrifice.

The reasonable course of action is to give myself the kill token and give all the save tokens to random strangers.

1. I cannot agree with that, personally. If I'm attacked by someone without cause, I will defend myself.
2. Self-sacrifice can often be pointless and stupid. It really depends.
HOWEVER, this is a unique situation. Unless I knew for sure I'd be handing out kill token to a bad, irredeemable person, I wouldn't bring myself to do it, and even then I'd probably feel terrible about it. Self-sacrifice here, while pointless on a grand scale, would likely be the right thing to do.


I'm not sure on the rules, but wouldn't giving the same person a kill and a save token cancel each other out, which would eliminate the need for self-sacrifice?

And mustang, just out of curiosity, are you american? I say this because your first ethic rule coincides neatly with the principle found here, in the excellent webcomic Illustrated Guide to ( U.S.A.'s) Criminal Law ( read through 16 pages to get the full point). It's just that this principle, from where I'm standing, is completely bonkers. Ethical imperative (specific to my country at this time) the life of oneself is worth more to them than anyone else's, and the life of a loved one is worth more than that of a random stranger; therefore, if the sacrifice of another's life removes the immediate, certain and direct danger to your life or that of a loved one, it is justified, as one could not be expected to put the lives of others above their own.


While I'm not quite convinced there's no circumstance when it's acceptable to take a human life (though I've yet to find one other than self-defense), a big part of my moral values is that, ideally, one should not value themself (the perpetuation of their biological function being only one aspect of this) higher than anyone else. This seems impossible at first, but ultimately the value one places on something is demonstrated by their actions, more than by any emotion or even assertion on their part.

Of course, it isn't as if one can distribute their save tokens equally to everyone in the world, and most people probably have someone they value far above themselves, even, for better or worse, above the other people around them.

It does make sense to grant one save and one kill token at the same time, to avoid killing anyone... but then, you also lose the opportunity to improve anyone's chances.
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Re: The Cull.

Postby Alex Starkiller » Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:24 pm

Well, we cannot really abide by that ideal. There are some very bad people in this world, and I doubt I could ever find a reason to value them equally to myself.
Down dirty bitches, becoming the witches
Grindin' up and down 'cause they grantin' all my wishes
Bring out all my aces like this game was Poker
Banish all the witches, thank you based Madoka!
"Ante Up" - ForeverPandering
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Re: The Cull.

Postby mustang6172 » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:29 pm

luislsacc wrote:
Alex Starkiller wrote:
mustang6172 wrote:I have two major ethics to apply to this.

1. No one has the right to end anyone else's life, even if to extend their own.
2. The only thing more noble than helping a stranger is self sacrifice.

The reasonable course of action is to give myself the kill token and give all the save tokens to random strangers.

1. I cannot agree with that, personally. If I'm attacked by someone without cause, I will defend myself.
2. Self-sacrifice can often be pointless and stupid. It really depends.
HOWEVER, this is a unique situation. Unless I knew for sure I'd be handing out kill token to a bad, irredeemable person, I wouldn't bring myself to do it, and even then I'd probably feel terrible about it. Self-sacrifice here, while pointless on a grand scale, would likely be the right thing to do.


I'm not sure on the rules, but wouldn't giving the same person a kill and a save token cancel each other out, which would eliminate the need for self-sacrifice?

And mustang, just out of curiosity, are you american? I say this because your first ethic rule coincides neatly with the principle found here, in the excellent webcomic Illustrated Guide to ( U.S.A.'s) Criminal Law ( read through 16 pages to get the full point). It's just that this principle, from where I'm standing, is completely bonkers. Ethical imperative (specific to my country at this time) the life of oneself is worth more to them than anyone else's, and the life of a loved one is worth more than that of a random stranger; therefore, if the sacrifice of another's life removes the immediate, certain and direct danger to your life or that of a loved one, it is justified, as one could not be expected to put the lives of others above their own.


I am an American.

If Person A thinks her life is more valuable than Person B's life and Person B is convinced of the opposite, then the Law of Contradiction demands that one or both of them is/are wrong.
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Re: The Cull.

Postby crayzz » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:51 pm

mustang6172 wrote:If Person A thinks her life is more valuable than Person B's life and Person B is convinced of the opposite, then the Law of Contradiction demands that one or both of them is/are wrong.


Only when assuming an objective measurement of value. Such, to my knowledge, does not exist.
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Re: The Cull.

Postby luislsacc » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:13 am

crayzz wrote:
mustang6172 wrote:If Person A thinks her life is more valuable than Person B's life and Person B is convinced of the opposite, then the Law of Contradiction demands that one or both of them is/are wrong.


Only when assuming an objective measurement of value. Such, to my knowledge, does not exist.

That's exactly the issue I have, a person cannot be considered ( even though they might think they are/ be) an impartial judge to the worth of their lives and those of others. Man, when recognised as an animal, is meant to have a severly strong self-preservation instinct that would doubtlessly place himself above all others when his survival was at risk. The legitimacy of one's actions must be judged with the values one is supposed to defend and uphold according to societal expectations. That's why people who sacrifice themselves are viewed as heroes, and not as a standard, law-abiding person.

As to other circumstances that would justify killing another, there's plenty of them. Out of lawful necessity, and here's a way too complicated example:
Person A is driving their car responsibly. When driving downhill , with a cliff to their right and in front ( there's a unreasonably sharp turn to the left), they are unable to stop their car because of an oil spill on the road from a truck that whose hose malfunctioned and was tracking oil. Person A can either turn their car left, and hit Person B, turn it right or keep it going forward, and go off a cliff ( at their speed, it is clear that trying to make the turn would be impossible, and it is also clear that they cannot reduce their speed sufficiently). Jumping out of the car is impossible in time ( though I doubt the person would have thought of it anyway). I'm sure there are other ways of escaping the situation that someone with enough imagination can think of, but let's say they're unavailable for some reason. In this situation then, the coices are to kill a person or suicide. In my country, it is unreasonable to ask people to commit suicide, therefore the choice that ends with the death of Person B is "forgiven" by law, so it's one more situation where killing someone is acceptable.
And of course, we haven't even talked about war.
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Re: The Cull.

Postby Alex Starkiller » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:57 am

I'd posit a situation where if you murdered someone, you'd prevent unknown counts of rape or murder or torture. Law enforcement may or may not catch him if you went to them, but peoples' lives will be ruined or ended by the time you do.
Last edited by Alex Starkiller on Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
Down dirty bitches, becoming the witches
Grindin' up and down 'cause they grantin' all my wishes
Bring out all my aces like this game was Poker
Banish all the witches, thank you based Madoka!
"Ante Up" - ForeverPandering
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Re: The Cull.

Postby luislsacc » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:29 am

Alex Starkiller wrote:I'd posit a situation where if you murdered someone, you'd prevent unknown counts of rape or murder or torture. Law enforcement may or may not catch him if you went to them, but peoples lives will be ruined or ended by the time you do.

If you can't reach the law authorities in time to prevent the severe damage to the other person is ( to yourself) undoubtfully going to cause, to stop them yourself still falls within the realm of self-defense. Well, sort of, perhaps the choice to call it "self" defense in english is unfortunate, as in my language the concept is called "legitimate" defense, and it does include protecting others from illicit ( and immediate) harm.
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