Gender Attribution

Serious discussions on politics, religion, and the like.

Re: Gender Attribution

Postby Packbat » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:07 pm

RyukaTana wrote:In fact, I'll probably use the pronoun that a person wants me to, [...]

If that's the case, then why did you post all this other bullshit?

And don't get me wrong, the other stuff you posted is, in point of fact, bullshit. I could go through trying to categorize all the informal fallacies you committed there, but I seriously doubt either of us care; if, as you say, you are willing to defer to the wishes of someone who asks you to use the pronouns they prefer, then why did the things we post inspire such fury in you?
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Re: Gender Attribution

Postby RyukaTana » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:18 pm

Alex Starkiller wrote:Jesus, that's bullshit. You don't actually believe they aren't what they say they are. Not within this context. You're just being a childish asshole. "Would it be all that hard to call you "her"? No. I just don't want to call you by what you ask because I don't feel like it."


No, what I'm saying is the gender and sex are complicated issues, and I decide how to handle them in my own life. However, I'm emphasizing the part where I call other people whatever the fuck I want because that's how it works. I call other people whatever the fuck I want. You don't have to like it, you don't have to be a part of it, and you can leave.

I have much more complex thoughts on the issue, but I don't discuss them in this context because all I'll get is stupid. Instead, I discuss them with my friends and trans individuals I meet, because those are the only people who I give two fucks to know what they think about the issue in the long run.

I'm so fucking tired of people going on about the least important issues when it comes to equality and sex and gender and sexuality and race, all just to fucking appease people. The worst thing is that so often these people adopt it. They just 'want to be recognized' in the tiniest, most worthless possible ways. Fuck complacency. Fuck appeasement. Fuck baby steps. Fuck your superficial needs, despite how much deeper respect runs than what I fucking call you.

I will never ever ever agree that what someone calls you matters. My ex-girlfriend used to call me 'Chink' on a regular basis. I didn't ask her to, I didn't care for it (I wasn't bothered by it either), because it was something she wanted to call me. If someone dear to me called me by my legal name, I'd tell them never to call me that. If they did anyway, I could absolutely fucking stop talking to them. However, I wouldn't be so petty as to do so unless I had a reason to believe they did so specifically to disrespect me.

Packbat wrote:
RyukaTana wrote:In fact, I'll probably use the pronoun that a person wants me to, [...]

If that's the case, then why did you post all this other bullshit?

And don't get me wrong, the other stuff you posted is, in point of fact, bullshit. I could go through trying to categorize all the informal fallacies you committed there, but I seriously doubt either of us care; if, as you say, you are willing to defer to the wishes of someone who asks you to use the pronouns they prefer, then why did the things we post inspire such fury in you?


Principle. The principle is that it's a pointless, stupid, wasteful mentality that the word 'he' or 'she' fucking matters. It's a fucking useless diversion because for a lot of people it might be really hard to accept gender attribution. Those people need to learn to fucking respect people, not to 'tolerate', not to 'appease'. The world is full of bullshit, useless fucking arguments about equality, especially on the sides trying to fight for it.

I'm tired of groups fighting for equal rights only for the people they support (feminists, gay rights). I'm tired of homosexuals saying they don't have a choice, because whether or not that's true doesn't fucking matter. I'm tired of stupid shit being used to put up some worthless shield to try to get idiots to listen to why we all deserve to be equal. We all deserve to be equal because that's what we all fucking deserve. Every time we accept 'baby steps' we're just complacently giving in to the majority. We're just saying that the minorities don't matter enough to give them their rights now... Maybe someday, maybe when its another generation's problem.

For every 'baby step' there's a group getting basically NO recognition, waiting for someone else to take those fucking 'baby steps' and hope they might even get recognized at all.

So, for every group, including trans people, who are regularly getting stomped on by the majority, fuck gender pronouns. Fuck all the tiny worthless appeasements.
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Re: Gender Attribution

Postby crayzz » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:24 pm

Ryuka, I mean this sincerely and without damnation: you don't know what you're talking about.

This is one of the most recent notes on this discussion, and it's pretty asinine.


You then go on to demonstrate that you're consistent on pronouns. You are; I never denied that. Your multiscreener was a waste of time.

What I actually was noting was your willingness to call people stupid for wanting their identity recognized along side your indignation (apparently due to the assumption that "you're wrong" necessarily means "you're an idiot") at me stating another's beliefs were untenable.

They don't have any inherent power over someone, and if someone takes offense to them, that's their problem, not mine.


Inherent, no; then again, that was never the claim.

In the end, it's no more right for a trans individual to tell me how to view and interact with their sex and gender then it is for me to tell them the same.


Their identity is theirs; that is where "right" comes from.

Plenty of people use 'he' as a gender-neutral term.


This actually bugs the ever loving shit out of many women.

In the end, I don't care to be normal, and it doesn't change the most important fact that no one has to interact with me that does not wish to do so.


This is empirically false, unless you never leave your home. Further, forcing someone into a position of "be comfortable with my refusal to respect your identity or get out of my life" is nothing short of being an asshole for no reason.

If someone asks me to refer to them as 'Master', unless I agreed to it ahead of time, I'll tell them to fuck off... So no, that mentality doesn't work.


And you crash your entire argument in one sentence.

"Master" is just a word; a pronoun. You cannot construct an argument against using preferred pronouns without constructing an argument for not referring to someone as "master".

Yeah, I think all that politically correct bullshit is just that.


"I just think that's wrong" is one of the least convincing argument ever.

In fact, as far as I'm concerned, the concession to using gender pronouns is more idiotic because there are WAY BIGGER FUCKING ISSUES.


Hey asshole, there's hunger in Africa; stop arguing on the internet and go feed starving people.

Oh, wait, that's an asinine argument.

I will never ever ever agree that what someone calls you matters.


But you do believe people can fuck off for wanting to call you "master".

For every 'baby step' there's a group getting basically NO recognition, waiting for someone else to take those fucking 'baby steps' and hope they might even get recognized at all.


That's cause there are always assholes refusing to recognize.

EDIT:
Those people need to learn to fucking respect people, not to 'tolerate', not to 'appease'.


Indeed; this would be easier to fight if others would accept trans* identities.
Last edited by crayzz on Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gender Attribution

Postby Alex Starkiller » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:38 pm

RyukaTana, the conclusion here is that you are a disrespectful asshole using bullshit arguments to support a bullshit belief that you don't have to be respectful. As you are once again unwilling to even consider points that you have not made yourself, I'm done.
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Re: Gender Attribution

Postby Packbat » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:45 pm

RyukaTana, I think you're suffering under a lot of misapprehensions.

I think the most important is the idea that you can opt out of the gender bullshit. Well, if we were speaking Lojban, yeah, you could. But as long as you're speaking in English, it's going to be present, and as long as it's present, it's strictly better to acknowledge it and try not to be a dick about it than it is to not acknowledge it and not try not to be a dick about it.

The fact that there are more important issues - and the fact that there are issues being neglected - has no actual bearing on the issue of pronouns in language.

Also, most of the people you're complaining about - feminists, LGBT activists, sex-positivity advocates, research psychologists, et cetera - do care about other issues.

Also, it doesn't actually matter if they care about other issues any more than it matters that there are other issues.

When you speak English, be willing to use the gendered pronouns that people prefer and be aware that the male pronoun is not gender-neutral. That's really all we're asking.
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Re: Gender Attribution

Postby RyukaTana » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:13 pm

Everything I have to say comes down to 'Circumstance = Difference', but I'll keep going. That's just the TL;DR.

crayzz wrote:You then go on to demonstrate that you're consistent on pronouns. You are; I never denied that. Your multiscreener was a waste of time.

What I actually was noting was your willingness to call people stupid for wanting their identity recognized along side your indignation (apparently due to the assumption that "you're wrong" necessarily means "you're an idiot") at me stating another's beliefs were untenable.


Okay, fine, I'll concede the first point. That has to do with your implication not my inferrence. Turns out, that's a big theme with the rest of this shit.

However, intent is the other major hinge. My indignation is that you actually think that people who believe a thing or act a certain way are inferior. No matter what I think about gender attribution, NO ONE is inferior. Even if I think those people are wrong for thinking of gender and sex in those ways, it does not make them inferior. It doesn't make them stupid for believing it.

In the end, it comes down to 'what I think' not what is or isn't. In that way, I am not being inconsistent, you just decided to consider it such because you are only looking at my words and failing with regards to my intentions. I'll admit, I'm not entirely forthcoming about my intentions. I said it here:

RyukaTana wrote:I have much more complex thoughts on the issue, but I don't discuss them in this context because all I'll get is stupid. Instead, I discuss them with my friends and trans individuals I meet, because those are the only people who I give two fucks to know what they think about the issue in the long run.


That's all I have to say about my deeper intentions. It's just one of those things not worth the time to argue about without random internet dicks (I'm not using dicks as an insult, just a casual term here, unless you want to take it as an insult, in which case you can probably rightly assume I mean it that way in your case).

I would also note, where Packbat said:

Packbat wrote:...then why did the things we post inspire such fury in you?


I was literally answering that question.

crayzz wrote:
Ryuka Tana wrote:Plenty of people use 'he' as a gender-neutral term.


This actually bugs the ever loving shit out of many women.


I know, I'd equally argue against that. In fact, I basically am.

crayzz wrote:
Ryuka Tana wrote:In the end, I don't care to be normal, and it doesn't change the most important fact that no one has to interact with me that does not wish to do so.


This is empirically false, unless you never leave your home. Further, forcing someone into a position of "be comfortable with my refusal to respect your identity or get out of my life" is nothing short of being an asshole for no reason.


Fine, if you can't handle a little bit of perceived offense for long enough to decide to leave my presence, then I consider you weak and foolish and in that case I just don't care what you think about 'offense'. I'm not being an asshole for no reason, but I'll accept I'm being an asshole. I have very close friends who will tell you that, but they respect me for why I do the things I do.

crayzz wrote:
Ryuka Tana wrote:If someone asks me to refer to them as 'Master', unless I agreed to it ahead of time, I'll tell them to fuck off... So no, that mentality doesn't work.


And you crash your entire argument in one sentence.

"Master" is just a word; a pronoun. You cannot construct an argument against using preferred pronouns without constructing an argument for not referring to someone as "master".


Nope... Sorry, wrong. I can absolutely do that. 'Master' is just a word, but 'asking/telling me to call you 'Master'' is an ACTION. It's asking me to submit some part of myself to you (not even because of the word 'Master', necessarily, I would disrespect it if someone asked me to call them 'James' if the connotation were that I must submit myself to him (or her) because of that). The premise is clear, 'Call me master, and submit to me'.

Wait, 'The premise is clear...' Based on circumstance. Don't try to turn that shit on me. If my girlfriend asked me to call her 'Master' or 'Mistress' in a sexual situation, I would do so. Circumstance changes the nature of the action. If I were dealing with a trans individual I would likely have had a discussion with them about their trans****ism and what that means to both of us. Circumstance changes the nature of what I am calling them.


Also, most of your arguments are basically 'Rules Lawyering'. You attack the argument instead of the premise or intention because you have little substance. Again now, I'm done with you in this. I don't need to engage any further in your shitty tactics. I maintain the arguments here against you because they also connect to my discussion with other people.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Packbat wrote:The fact that there are more important issues - and the fact that there are issues being neglected - has no actual bearing on the issue of pronouns in language.

Also, most of the people you're complaining about - feminists, LGBT activists, sex-positivity advocates, research psychologists, et cetera - do care about other issues.

Also, it doesn't actually matter if they care about other issues any more than it matters that there are other issues.


No, that's the point. It all interconnects. Time and effort are constraints, and that any of it is placed in one place, does detract. In fact, 'it all interconnects' is really the problem. I can't argue every related thing, and people love to think everything is a separate cause or issue that has nothing to do with anything else. So I can only reasonably argue the one facet we're discussing here.

To go beyond the topic would only inspire questions that require going farther and farther until we reach a point where we're discussing everything.

The topic at hand, for me, is that I can call people whatever the fuck I want. The words I say are mine, not anyone else's, and I don't owe them words. Not at all. That's it. I'm not even arguing common courtesy or my feelings on the topic of sex and gender, because that's not the topic. As I've said, I'm not arguing the latter with random internet dicks.

Packbat wrote:When you speak English, be willing to use the gendered pronouns that people prefer and be aware that the male pronoun is not gender-neutral. That's really all we're asking.


Thus, fuck this. You don't know me, you don't know the strawman trans individual you're defending, and it's none of your business. I will call them, and you, as I please. So far, I've chosen to address you the way you seem to desire (Packbat and 'he', you haven't corrected me so far) because I respect you (or because I don't have any reason otherwise, but in your case, it is with general respect). I will call any person what works for me based on my mutual relationship with that individual, and that has nothing to do with you. That means I might call them 'fucktard asshole bitch', and that's my choice, and if that's what I feel they've earned, too bad if it bothers them or you. Stop talking to me if you (anyone) finds my actions objectionable (or whatever you deem as the reason you don't want to talk to me anymore).
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Re: Gender Attribution

Postby crayzz » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:33 pm

My indignation is that you actually think that people who believe a thing or act a certain way are inferior.


Quote me please.

I can absolutely do that.


No, you can't. Nor have you. Learn the concept of "set" and "subsets"; you addressed the latter, not the former.

If I were dealing with a trans individual I would likely have had a discussion with them about their trans****ism and what that means to both of us. Circumstance changes the nature of what I am calling them.


Indeed. The circumstance is that trans* people (generally) have an identity they want recognized. Your refusal under such circumstances is little more than whining at the idea of being considerate.

You attack the argument instead of the premise or intention because you have little substance.


Did you actually write that with a straight face? Without the arguments, you have nothing but a premise. A premise, unto itself, is useless. You need a conclusion, even if it's as banal as "If a then b; a therefor b".

Your "premise" is nothing more than an assertion that others should think the way you do. Such a premise is rather amusing, considering.
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Re: Gender Attribution

Postby RyukaTana » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:38 pm

Instead of, not in addition to... I continue to have nothing else to say to you. I continue to be done with your actual arguments, for the same reason I said before.

EDIT: Oh, and one more thing along those same lines, in response to you asking me multiple times to quote you. Fuck no, that's more time spent reading your bullshit, to search for shit, which you will refute with your bullshit methods because you already believe the bullshit you said to begin with... That's time spent trying to more convincingly have more condescending, asinine discussions with you, after reading the condescending, asinine discussion we already had once again. I know you'll likely say that this is because I don't want to be proven wrong or whatever. I can't prove otherwise without wasting my time, and so if I have to actually lose, wherein I wasted an even more notable amount of time on you, or 'lose' in the pointless way in which you think you won (maybe other people do, too) I'll take the latter.
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Re: Gender Attribution

Postby Packbat » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:56 am

RyukaTana wrote:
Packbat wrote:The fact that there are more important issues - and the fact that there are issues being neglected - has no actual bearing on the issue of pronouns in language.

Also, most of the people you're complaining about - feminists, LGBT activists, sex-positivity advocates, research psychologists, et cetera - do care about other issues.

Also, it doesn't actually matter if they care about other issues any more than it matters that there are other issues.


No, that's the point. It all interconnects. Time and effort are constraints, and that any of it is placed in one place, does detract.

What we're asking you to do requires very little time and effort relative to its results. This isn't "volunteer with the Peace Corps", this is "buckle your seat belt".

Packbat wrote:When you speak English, be willing to use the gendered pronouns that people prefer and be aware that the male pronoun is not gender-neutral. That's really all we're asking.


Thus, fuck this. You don't know me, you don't know the strawman trans individual you're defending, and it's none of your business. I will call them, and you, as I please. So far, I've chosen to address you the way you seem to desire (Packbat and 'he', you haven't corrected me so far) because I respect you (or because I don't have any reason otherwise, but in your case, it is with general respect). I will call any person what works for me based on my mutual relationship with that individual, and that has nothing to do with you. That means I might call them 'fucktard asshole bitch', and that's my choice, and if that's what I feel they've earned, too bad if it bothers them or you. Stop talking to me if you (anyone) finds my actions objectionable (or whatever you deem as the reason you don't want to talk to me anymore).

Let me rephrase, then: when you are both speaking English and not trying to be an asshole, use the gendered pronouns that people prefer and be aware that the male pronoun is not gender-neutral. Capisce?
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Re: Gender Attribution

Postby RyukaTana » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:11 pm

I'm not about to simply say, 'yeah, okay' to someone else's imperative. I'm going to use pronouns as I see fit, and I'm going to use 'he' as gender-neutral because I disagree with any other gender-neutral pronoun (with regards to a singular person) because I have the higher cognitive function to disassociate the word from its normal gender association. You argued about how English is a language the refers to gender, and in retort I'd argue that it's gender binary, and 'xe' isn't an English word (and it isn't a word I'm going to use) and 'it' is considered by many to be at least as offensive as using a 'wrong-gendered' pronouns. There are plenty of people who aren't man or woman mentally, and plenty of trans people who don't quite know what to think of themselves.

So, in the end, I'm going to use the language that works for me, always. When I give a damn, I'll discuss my use of whatever words I use with to people with whom I am using them. If the person I am interacting with cares more about my use of the word 'he' or 'she' than whether or not I've given time and respect to their gender issues, then I honestly couldn't care less if I am constantly offending that person.
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