The Ontology of Pick-Up Artists

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The Ontology of Pick-Up Artists

Postby sethtriggs » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:01 pm

Something just occurred to me with all the vehement discussions of the characterization of Pick-Up Artists (PUAs). As there were various arguments offered that the character Eric was behaving creepy, or using strawman PUA tactics, it struck me...

Are there PUAs for women in picking up men?

I know there's lots of guides on "How to get a man;" they are a staple of magazines like Cosmo, et al. But is there a PUA community for women to pick up men? I'm not as well-traveled on the Internet as many of the readers of this comic so I am curious to see if you've experienced female PUAs.

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Re: The Ontology of Pick-Up Artists

Postby Deepbluediver » Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:14 pm

sethtriggs wrote:Are there PUAs for women in picking up men?

Depends on exactly what you mean. I'm sure there are systems for when a woman wants to try to string a guy along and get something out of him (gifts, money, etc) or for people who are just borderline sociopaths, but those come across as even worse than PUAs.

Regarding casual one-night-stands for the non-criminally inclined among us, our civilization (that is, Western/developed society), for a number of reasons both historical and cultural, tends to think of sex as something guys want and get from women. Even in cases where people are explicitly there to hook up (like a singles bar) it's guys who tend to do the pursuing of women, and the mentality is one of succeeding in convincing or tricking her to hop into the sack with him. Unless a woman wants to get the attention of a particular man who is otherwise uninterested in her, she could probably walk up to any guy, grab his ass, and walk out of the bar with him less than 5 minutes later. I'm not going to claim, of course, that a this wouldn't happen in a reversed situation (we are talking about a place where people are at their most susceptible, afterall, and many women appreciate a confident partner) but it's significantly less likely.

At the very least, I don't know of any sort of popular system or theory that utilizes the subtlety or manipulative aspects of male PUAs for women. Certain techniques beyond "wear a shorter skirt" almost undoubtedly exist, but they likely wouldn't attract the same attention because they would be needed in a lot fewer situations. There's also a big difference in trying to attract some one for a long-term relationship and just wanting to get together for sex; PUA tend to focus more on the latter.
Also, everything I say regards straight couples; I have no idea what the gay and lesbian community thinks of any of this.


So to summarize: if PUA strategies for women exist, they occupy much less space in the arena of public awareness.
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Re: The Ontology of Pick-Up Artists

Postby RyukaTana » Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:03 pm

I know this is going to sound sexist to people who aren't paying attention, but understand that I am not painting all men and all women with one brush stroke. However, 'women pick-up artists' is pretty much an unnecessary endeavor, at least in American (and generally Western, from what I've seen) culture. Men are easy. That's not to say every man is just a horndog who trolls for sex. The point, however, is that a lot of them are, and it's easy to know where to find them, and they aren't subtle.

If a woman wants sex, and she's even reasonably close to 'conventionally attractive', she can generally get sex whenever she wants. It's kind of ironic because that sort of women is often seen as a 'slut', not a 'PUA' or 'predator'. The same kinds of people who talk down to men for their 'predatory mindsets' will tear you a new asshole for slut-shaming*. I'm not saying there isn't a difference, but the difference lies more in method than purpose, and a lot of people cut down Eric (and other men) for 'just wanting sex'.

Anyway, feel free to tell me how much of a misogynistic, sexist pig I am. I'm just offering a bit of honesty. Again, I'm not painting everyone with one broad brush stroke. There are probably 'women PUAs' that have more discerning tastes, but I'd definitely say it's not really a 'community' because of how easy it would be to just go out and pick up a guy if all you want is sex.



*Note: I will also tear someone a new asshole for slut-shaming, I'm not at all talking down to the mindset. I'm just discussing the hypocrisy of saying that women who want casual sex shouldn't be judged, but men who just want sex are misogynists and pigs.
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Re: The Ontology of Pick-Up Artists

Postby luislsacc » Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:36 pm

To be perfectly honest I do not have a lot of experience regarding nightclubs - I've been to a few, danced is fewer, but to me it always seems like an overrated way to spend a night, but simply only because it's not to my specific tastes. Because of that, I've never personally seen much PUA action by anyone of any gender in person, so all I can relay is what I've seen on the internet and in pop-culture, and in those media outlets, the closest thing I've ever seen to female PUA behaviour is what is portrayed as being had by "cougars" in relation to younger men. I think PUA tactics seem to be used when a perceived disadvantage in social standing for the nightclub type of interaction exists, as women if more fertile ages tend to be more choosy of their partners, as is well illustrated in this Vsauce video.
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Re: The Ontology of Pick-Up Artists

Postby Tem » Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:38 pm

RyukaTana wrote:If a woman wants sex, and she's even reasonably close to 'conventionally attractive'


IF.

And this is what sexist men don't understand: the women you deem unattractive are people, too, just like you, and they want sex, too. And by not approaching them in an environment where it is not considered acceptable for women to approach men, you are just as bad as the beautiful women who say "no" to you.

If a man wants sex, and he's conventionally attractive, he doesn't need manipulation, either. And if he isn't ... see above, there are women who have the same problem.

The difference: Women can accept that, maybe, they're not that attractive and should do something about that if they want a more attractive partner. But PUAs? Oh no, they feel entitled to sex with the most beautiful woman in the room. Regardless of their own attractiveness. And they're too lazy even to become an interesting person. Probably, learning PUA manipulation methods is more effort than just getting a decent haircut and reading some interesting books to talk about with interesting women, but some people like to put more effort into cheating than they would have to invest to reach their goals by honest means.
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Re: The Ontology of Pick-Up Artists

Postby crayzz » Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:34 pm

But is there a PUA community for women to pick up men?


There are women who are willing to take advantage of drunk men, and then say that since they are men, they must have really wanted it. That's as close as it get's as far as I know.
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Re: The Ontology of Pick-Up Artists

Postby Alex Starkiller » Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:36 pm

Tem wrote:
RyukaTana wrote:If a woman wants sex, and she's even reasonably close to 'conventionally attractive'


IF.

And this is what sexist men don't understand: the women you deem unattractive are people, too, just like you, and they want sex, too.

Well, you certainly don't hold back when it comes to derogatory claims.
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Re: The Ontology of Pick-Up Artists

Postby crayzz » Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:45 pm

It's kind of ironic because that sort of women is often seen as a 'slut', not a 'PUA' or 'predator'. The same kinds of people who talk down to men for their 'predatory mindsets' will tear you a new asshole for slut-shaming*.


Well, yeah; the issue is the predatory mindset, not sleeping around. If PUA's didn't act predatory, there wouldn't be an issue.

Where's the double standard?

EDIT:

I'm not saying there isn't a difference, but the difference lies more in method than purpose, and a lot of people cut down Eric (and other men) for 'just wanting sex'.


Who did that? With respect to Eric, I mean; I know people cut men down for wanting sex. They're much harder on women, in my experience.
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Re: The Ontology of Pick-Up Artists

Postby luislsacc » Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:55 pm

Tem wrote:
RyukaTana wrote:If a woman wants sex, and she's even reasonably close to 'conventionally attractive'


IF.

And this is what sexist men don't understand: the women you deem unattractive are people, too, just like you, and they want sex, too. And by not approaching them in an environment where it is not considered acceptable for women to approach men, you are just as bad as the beautiful women who say "no" to you.

If a man wants sex, and he's conventionally attractive, he doesn't need manipulation, either. And if he isn't ... see above, there are women who have the same problem.

The difference: Women can accept that, maybe, they're not that attractive and should do something about that if they want a more attractive partner. But PUAs? Oh no, they feel entitled to sex with the most beautiful woman in the room. Regardless of their own attractiveness. And they're too lazy even to become an interesting person. Probably, learning PUA manipulation methods is more effort than just getting a decent haircut and reading some interesting books to talk about with interesting women, but some people like to put more effort into cheating than they would have to invest to reach their goals by honest means.


I have to say Tem, there's a few things here I disagree with and feel the need to express my opinion as to why.
Firstly, pretty much your whole second sentence. While I don't believe a woman is "bad" for denying a propostion for casual sex, I don't think the two situations you compared are a fair comparison - you first put the man at fault for his inaction, whereas the woman is put at fault for her action, namely her denial. A man, not approaching a woman, isn't denying her casual sex, he's not doing anything in relation to that woman. He does not acknowledge and refuse her sexual interest in him because she hasn't demonstrated any, which is clearly the oppostie of the second situation, where the man has demonstrated a specific interest to a woman and his proposal was denied. This may be yet another one of those situations of much different cultures, but silence cannot be treated as a declaration, unless the person being silent has specifically said that such silence in that ocasion is a declaration - if someone you've never met or had dealings with sent a letter to your house that said - "If you do not respond to this letter within 24 hours you owe me $20.", would you believe yourself indebted to that person?
And what do you mean, "an environment where it's not considered acceptable for women to approach men", exactly? Within all of current western civilization, I can't think of such a place - is it just outside the door of a men's bathroom, towards the men inside? Because as far as my already admited social experiennce in nightclubs, that learned by proxy of friends, family and acquaitances, or just general current pop culture, a nightclub isn't one of those places.

The other thing, while at this time ( namely, 1:30 AM) I cannot be 100% sure of it, your last paragraph seems to denotate that if a man puts enough effort into one or two aspects of himself, he earns the right to have sex with beautiful and/ or interesting women. You can't earn the right to sex with a woman. It certainly isn't something that only happens when you're deserving of it either. That kind of thinking, that because you've done a set list of things, it entitles you to sex sounds more like something that would lead to rapist mentality ( see here, moreso than that of a rational human being. You critizice PUA behaviour that leads to this feeling of entitlement, but frim your comment it seems it's only because gaining entitlement in the PUA fashion is "cheating" when compared to using "proper" methods to earn said entitlement.

Look Tem, I don't want to categorize you as a specific kind of anything, and at the moment I'm not even doing it in the back of my mind. It is perfectly possible that you have a way of further explaining your point that would do away with my problems with it, and I am really looking forward to reading it, but because this is ( by the very definition of it's name) a place to discuss, I wanted to to add my contribution to my conversation. I mean nothing of this as a personal attack, and I hope it does not come off as such.
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Re: The Ontology of Pick-Up Artists

Postby RyukaTana » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:49 pm

Tem wrote:
RyukaTana wrote:If a woman wants sex, and she's even reasonably close to 'conventionally attractive'


IF.

And this is what sexist men don't understand: the women you deem unattractive are people, too, just like you, and they want sex, too. And by not approaching them in an environment where it is not considered acceptable for women to approach men, you are just as bad as the beautiful women who say "no" to you.

If a man wants sex, and he's conventionally attractive, he doesn't need manipulation, either. And if he isn't ... see above, there are women who have the same problem.

The difference: Women can accept that, maybe, they're not that attractive and should do something about that if they want a more attractive partner. But PUAs? Oh no, they feel entitled to sex with the most beautiful woman in the room. Regardless of their own attractiveness. And they're too lazy even to become an interesting person. Probably, learning PUA manipulation methods is more effort than just getting a decent haircut and reading some interesting books to talk about with interesting women, but some people like to put more effort into cheating than they would have to invest to reach their goals by honest means.


Holy unrelated Batman! That's not the topic...

The topic at hand is 'whether women can be PUAs', not, 'let's extend the asinine conversations happening in comic threads to another place so we can hate on men in parallel'.

I have nothing else to say to you that isn't hurling insults, because (1) I'm not going to rapidly change the nature of this topic, if it isn't worth discussing it can die, and (2) because this level of misandry is so stupid it hurts.
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