0121 - Cuddles don't bring credits

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0121 - Cuddles don't bring credits

Postby dr pepper » Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:58 pm

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Re: 0121 - Cuddles don't bring credits

Postby lolzor99 » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:46 am

I understand that the residents of Forward!Canada would want to prevent sexual assault and other harmful incidents, but years of training seems like a long time. Perhaps it is legally required that sexual service providers be trained to accommodate a long list of body modifications as an anti-discrimination measure?
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Re: 0121 - Cuddles don't bring credits

Postby Killjoy » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:28 pm

lolzor99 wrote:I understand that the residents of Forward!Canada would want to prevent sexual assault and other harmful incidents, but years of training seems like a long time. Perhaps it is legally required that sexual service providers be trained to accommodate a long list of body modifications as an anti-discrimination measure?


Or it's considered a form of professional therapy.

Or all that.
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Re: 0121 - Cuddles don't bring credits

Postby strange7person » Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:38 pm

lolzor99 wrote:I understand that the residents of Forward!Canada would want to prevent sexual assault and other harmful incidents, but years of training seems like a long time. Perhaps it is legally required that sexual service providers be trained to accommodate a long list of body modifications as an anti-discrimination measure?

Sure, there's some real skill involved in doing it right, but i suspect the main (if seldom openly acknowledged) reason for requiring sex workers to jump through a lot of certification hoops is ultimately exclusion as an end in itself. Cull the endless legion of eager amateurs with nothing better to do by bludgeoning them with unsexy paperwork, grueling training schedules, and other de facto hazing rituals until most of them drop out. With demand constant and supply restricted, prices stay high. Compare MDs vs. Nurse Practitioners in the modern U.S.

Geometric asset tax would actually heavily incentivize that exact type of rent-seeking, since the value of a professional certification isn't trivially quantifiable, much less infinitely divisible, and thus can't be electronically eroded.
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Re: 0121 - Cuddles don't bring credits

Postby tenshiko » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:52 pm

See, this haunts me so much.

There are two polarized views of sex work going around. One where clients follow strict rules for workers that have made their own decision about a way to make money, and one where sex work is this extremely unpleasant thing that otherwise unemployed starving people are forced to do, even more deeply humiliating than burger-flipping or whatever, often with an emphasis on male clients and female workers.

The former model of respected workers apparently applies to humans in Forwardverse... but the impoverished minority-class coerced worker applies to this robot class of workers including Zoa who is constantly this close to electrically starving to death.
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Re: 0121 - Cuddles don't bring credits

Postby Killjoy » Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:23 am

strange7person wrote:
lolzor99 wrote:I understand that the residents of Forward!Canada would want to prevent sexual assault and other harmful incidents, but years of training seems like a long time. Perhaps it is legally required that sexual service providers be trained to accommodate a long list of body modifications as an anti-discrimination measure?

Sure, there's some real skill involved in doing it right, but i suspect the main (if seldom openly acknowledged) reason for requiring sex workers to jump through a lot of certification hoops is ultimately exclusion as an end in itself. Cull the endless legion of eager amateurs with nothing better to do by bludgeoning them with unsexy paperwork, grueling training schedules, and other de facto hazing rituals until most of them drop out. With demand constant and supply restricted, prices stay high. Compare MDs vs. Nurse Practitioners in the modern U.S.

Geometric asset tax would actually heavily incentivize that exact type of rent-seeking, since the value of a professional certification isn't trivially quantifiable, much less infinitely divisible, and thus can't be electronically eroded.


Good points.

This ideological economy and culture would certainly seem to favor both technocratic elitism, and rampant rent-seeking.
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Re: 0121 - Cuddles don't bring credits

Postby Killjoy » Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:32 am

tenshiko wrote:See, this haunts me so much.

There are two polarized views of sex work going around. One where clients follow strict rules for workers that have made their own decision about a way to make money, and one where sex work is this extremely unpleasant thing that otherwise unemployed starving people are forced to do, even more deeply humiliating than burger-flipping or whatever, often with an emphasis on male clients and female workers.

The former model of respected workers apparently applies to humans in Forwardverse... but the impoverished minority-class coerced worker applies to this robot class of workers including Zoa who is constantly this close to electrically starving to death.


And it gets even creepier when you read comments about the AIs that echo racism:

"They're not really people."
"If we're not careful, they'll take over."
"They're secretly out to get us."
Etc.

Never mind that the AIs wouldn't exist if they hadn't been built.

The hypocrisy of this culture is astounding.
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Re: 0121 - Cuddles don't bring credits

Postby lolzor99 » Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:14 pm

Killjoy wrote:
And it gets even creepier when you read comments about the AIs that echo racism:

"They're not really people."
"If we're not careful, they'll take over."
"They're secretly out to get us."
Etc.

Never mind that the AIs wouldn't exist if they hadn't been built.

The hypocrisy of this culture is astounding.


I'm going to grab a couple of quotes from the notes underneath some past pages of Forward:

Tailsteak wrote:Zoa has the personality it has because it needs to secure its own existence, and to do that it needs to make money, and (a crude simulacrum of) sex sells.

Unlike Lee, if Doc or Zoa were repurposed into new jobs, they'd update their personalities immediately.


Tailsteak wrote:Why, it would surely mess up the Very Meaningful Civil Rights Allegory (or whatever) if the People Who Are Different From Us were literally an inhuman horde, threatening to overpopulate and crowd out the humans within a single generation. Not a lot of non-Nazi directors want their sci-fi to say that we must secure the existence of our people and a future for meat children.

I'm not interested in that take, though. There are enough star-bellied sneetch metaphors out there. I actually do want to talk about AIs and what their existence means for the human race.


Tailsteak wrote:Anyway, as a piece of world-building, I will point out that truth-contexts are absolutely an element of the human consciousness and need to be an element of AI consciousness. That's the reason why you can say "this sentence is false" to Zoa and it won't cause it to malfunction and shut down: Zoa is more than capable of handling apparent paradoxes by segmenting out different contexts for every aspect of a statement.

It's actually quite similar to the way that Zoa was able to act on Lee's behalf earlier - it enrolled Lee in Rosenthal because of its own self-interest, but was able to establish a context in which its only priority was Lee's well-being and show that it could derive the same course of action.

It should be noted, as I said, that separating out reality-contexts is an important element of human consciousness. You should be very careful around someone who appears to be unable to do so. You should be more careful around someone who does it a little too well.


Tailsteak wrote:You often hear stories of AI solving problems in very efficient ways that aren't the way they're supposed to. One that I heard recently was a simulation of a plane landing that was supposed to minimize turbulence, but discovered fairly quickly that if it just crashed the plane as hard as it could, the amount of "turbulence" was 0, so that was outputted as the best answer.

In the future, many kinks like that have been ironed out. They had to be, to allow general purpose humanoid automatons to wander about unsupervised, let alone to interact with human genitalia. In a world of rules and technicalities, though, the ability to think laterally is a survival mechanism that will, inevitably, be selected for.

Fortunately, Zoa understands enough about the real world not to crash planes.

Whether a human can inadvertently order it to crash a plane is another matter.


There are multiple ways to interpret these quotes, I'm sure. From my point of view, the quotes seem to indicate that the anti-AI sentiment you refer to is correct to some degree in the Forward universe. What are your thoughts?
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Re: 0121 - Cuddles don't bring credits

Postby Killjoy » Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:36 pm

lolzor99 wrote:
Killjoy wrote:
And it gets even creepier when you read comments about the AIs that echo racism:

"They're not really people."
"If we're not careful, they'll take over."
"They're secretly out to get us."
Etc.

Never mind that the AIs wouldn't exist if they hadn't been built.

The hypocrisy of this culture is astounding.


I'm going to grab a couple of quotes from the notes underneath some past pages of Forward:

Tailsteak wrote:Zoa has the personality it has because it needs to secure its own existence, and to do that it needs to make money, and (a crude simulacrum of) sex sells.

Unlike Lee, if Doc or Zoa were repurposed into new jobs, they'd update their personalities immediately.


Tailsteak wrote:Why, it would surely mess up the Very Meaningful Civil Rights Allegory (or whatever) if the People Who Are Different From Us were literally an inhuman horde, threatening to overpopulate and crowd out the humans within a single generation. Not a lot of non-Nazi directors want their sci-fi to say that we must secure the existence of our people and a future for meat children.

I'm not interested in that take, though. There are enough star-bellied sneetch metaphors out there. I actually do want to talk about AIs and what their existence means for the human race.


Tailsteak wrote:Anyway, as a piece of world-building, I will point out that truth-contexts are absolutely an element of the human consciousness and need to be an element of AI consciousness. That's the reason why you can say "this sentence is false" to Zoa and it won't cause it to malfunction and shut down: Zoa is more than capable of handling apparent paradoxes by segmenting out different contexts for every aspect of a statement.

It's actually quite similar to the way that Zoa was able to act on Lee's behalf earlier - it enrolled Lee in Rosenthal because of its own self-interest, but was able to establish a context in which its only priority was Lee's well-being and show that it could derive the same course of action.

It should be noted, as I said, that separating out reality-contexts is an important element of human consciousness. You should be very careful around someone who appears to be unable to do so. You should be more careful around someone who does it a little too well.


Tailsteak wrote:You often hear stories of AI solving problems in very efficient ways that aren't the way they're supposed to. One that I heard recently was a simulation of a plane landing that was supposed to minimize turbulence, but discovered fairly quickly that if it just crashed the plane as hard as it could, the amount of "turbulence" was 0, so that was outputted as the best answer.

In the future, many kinks like that have been ironed out. They had to be, to allow general purpose humanoid automatons to wander about unsupervised, let alone to interact with human genitalia. In a world of rules and technicalities, though, the ability to think laterally is a survival mechanism that will, inevitably, be selected for.

Fortunately, Zoa understands enough about the real world not to crash planes.

Whether a human can inadvertently order it to crash a plane is another matter.


There are multiple ways to interpret these quotes, I'm sure. From my point of view, the quotes seem to indicate that the anti-AI sentiment you refer to is correct to some degree in the Forward universe. What are your thoughts?


My thought is that a society deliberately building a slave-race, setting up all the rules to make sure that humans can easily identify them and to keep them "in their place", and then treating them as a constant threat... makes me want this Forward society to collapse sooner rather than later.

Tailsteak's takes on the way human minds function are... interesting, but based on a whole interwoven construct of over-projecting his own experience and rather skewed definitions and word-usage. He's also repeatedly made statements about how the AI supposedly functions, about how it's not really a thinking feeling entity... and then proceeds to show Zoe, at least, thinking and feeling in the comic. The under-comic narrator is grossly unreliable.
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Re: 0121 - Cuddles don't bring credits

Postby tenshiko » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:27 pm

[quote={lolzor99}]From my point of view, the quotes seem to indicate that the anti-AI sentiment you refer to is correct to some degree in the Forward universe.[/quote]

The quotes prove that robots are different from humans in copying quickly. They might outnumber humans. That's completely different from whether opposing their expansion and flourishment is right.
Last edited by tenshiko on Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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