0148 - The Amelia Bedelia Factor

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0148 - The Amelia Bedelia Factor

Postby dr pepper » Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:39 pm

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Re: 0148 - The Amelia Bedelia Factor

Postby tenshiko » Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:06 am

So, Zoa literally is capable of "being sorry". To me, the question of "does Zoa have emotions" is now 100% closed. Yes, even though Zoa has functions that involve shutting off this sense of being sorry. You can give humans drugs that result in emotional absence or presence, too. Zoa has an emulation of emotions that is interchangeable with the biochemical thing.
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Re: 0148 - The Amelia Bedelia Factor

Postby lolzor99 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:15 am

tenshiko wrote:So, Zoa literally is capable of "being sorry". To me, the question of "does Zoa have emotions" is now 100% closed. Yes, even though Zoa has functions that involve shutting off this sense of being sorry. You can give humans drugs that result in emotional absence or presence, too. Zoa has an emulation of emotions that is interchangeable with the biochemical thing.


I've always been on the "Zoa is only motivated by money and self preservation" train, but you're right, this panel pretty clearly indicates that Zoa can indeed feel emotions. At this point, I'm just going to assume that either the setting is inconsistent or Tailsteak is (intentionally or not) an unreliable narrator.
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Re: 0148 - The Amelia Bedelia Factor

Postby MegaJar » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:51 am

Personally, I agree that Zoa can, in fact, feel emotions. I tend to view Zoa based on the "duck test" -- if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck. Similarly, if Zoa looks like it has emotions, acts like it has emotions, and talks like it has emotions, then it probably has emotions. It's a lot easier to believe that than it is to constantly tell myself "oh, Zoa's just simulating human emotions, don't trust it!"

Of course, by that same duck test, if it looks, acts, dresses, and talks like it's female, then it's probably female. Do you have any idea how hard it is for my binary-gender-wired brain to remember to use "they/them" and "it" to refer to Lee and Zoa (respectively) instead of "she/her"?
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Re: 0148 - The Amelia Bedelia Factor

Postby Killjoy » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:53 am

MegaJar wrote:Personally, I agree that Zoa can, in fact, feel emotions. I tend to view Zoa based on the "duck test" -- if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck. Similarly, if Zoa looks like it has emotions, acts like it has emotions, and talks like it has emotions, then it probably has emotions. It's a lot easier to believe that than it is to constantly tell myself "oh, Zoa's just simulating human emotions, don't trust it!"

Of course, by that same duck test, if it looks, acts, dresses, and talks like it's female, then it's probably female. Do you have any idea how hard it is for my binary-gender-wired brain to remember to use "they/them" and "it" to refer to Lee and Zoa (respectively) instead of "she/her"?


In the rush to be accepting and acknowledge self-choice, there's been a denial that actual genetic/physical sex is a thing -- especially in the mistaken belief that equality = sameness and difference = inequality.

There's nothing wrong with being trans, or fluid, or otherwise non-binary. But it seems that for some reason, there's an assertion that we can't OK with that while also being OK with most people being actually male or female.

It doesn't help that people at both extremes of that conflict between reviling and enshrining gender roles seem determined to conflate "tends to be" with "absolutely always is". They can grasp that "male humans tend to be taller than female humans, but that doesn't mean that all males are taller than all females"... but they can't seem to grasp the same thing with personality or social concepts, or that a healthy society needs to look at individuals and not broad categories.
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Re: 0148 - The Amelia Bedelia Factor

Postby tenshiko » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:39 am

Yeah, everything Tailsteak says about this society and sex/gender/sexuality strikes me as either dubious or outright nuts. Humans with uteri, clipped or not, seeing human dick as a SAFE ALTERNATIVE to robot dick? Is he insane?? But anyway, more pertinent to the current discussion. Caleb, Orb, and Patricia all have appearances, secondary sex characteristics, and even names that all seem similar enough to what modern expectations would be for their primary sex characteristics. (Though Orb is an unusual name, and Patricia's primary sex characteristics are technically unconfirmed, just suspected by me because Zoa commented on all dicks encountered, later in private if necessary. Also, Patricia has a pretty obvious kinship with Lily.) The ONLY human character with a difference from these expectations, is Lee - who is tormented by dysphoria. And as for Zoa... This robot who, according to Tailsteak's oh so reliable description would change everything to match necessary goals, is incredibly 20th-century feminine and would like to become even more so. This was not an accident.
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Re: 0148 - The Amelia Bedelia Factor

Postby strange7person » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:24 am

tenshiko wrote:So, Zoa literally is capable of "being sorry". To me, the question of "does Zoa have emotions" is now 100% closed. Yes, even though Zoa has functions that involve shutting off this sense of being sorry. You can give humans drugs that result in emotional absence or presence, too. Zoa has an emulation of emotions that is interchangeable with the biochemical thing.

Don't forget that Lee can also choose to stop experiencing specific mental states by a technologically-mediated act of will, thanks to that standard neurochemical rebalancer.
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Re: 0148 - The Amelia Bedelia Factor

Postby Killjoy » Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:10 pm

tenshiko wrote:Yeah, everything Tailsteak says about this society and sex/gender/sexuality strikes me as either dubious or outright nuts. Humans with uteri, clipped or not, seeing human dick as a SAFE ALTERNATIVE to robot dick? Is he insane??


Tailsteak's narrator-posts are classic "unreliable narrator".

As it applies to your comment, I'm trying to find his "fuck" vs "being fucked" entry.

But when someone says something like the last line of the author's comments here and makes it appear to be a serious statement... I have no idea where to go with that.

http://www.leftoversoup.com/archive.php?num=536

"And, as a side note, since Lily is not in this scene to do so, I'd just like to point out that Ellen's statement in panel 3 boils down to "I've got a thing for deep voices and angular jawlines, and I think all the rape and war ever is an acceptable price to pay for that"."

:roll:

Tailsteak is either doing that thing were someone tries to provoke thought by saying things they don't really think are true (ie, lying), or he has some very messed up views on the causes of war and rape.
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Re: 0148 - The Amelia Bedelia Factor

Postby tenshiko » Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:47 pm

Tailsteak's comment on LS 536 is in the context "If we accept that neurochemistry determines behaviour" (panel 1). Behavior = observed enormous pattern in this world of war and rape. Neurochemistry = hypothesized alternative causes. In this context it makes sense.

You can compare Ellen's argument to "freedom of human thought from antidepressants is worth basically all the world's suicide" (an debate that has seen many arguments on both sides, like the drugs that made van Gogh's yellpw flowers).

Anyway, "people fear people with things like human dicks" is a position that makes at least some sense to me, which is unsurprising given my comments on the thread for LS 832. The problem for me in FWD instead relies on the assumed trustworthiness of human dick. Tailsteak discusses chemical castration in LS 536, but in FWD it's clearly not happening (not on the same scale as clipping). FWD 146 describes Caleb's barrel chested intimidation factor.

Yes, Forward takes place in a society where "assault on a college campus is unimaginable". So I can buy that rape of all kinds is a largely solved problem.

But how is human dick perpetrator rape a MORE SOLVED problem than robot dick perpetrator rape? MORE SOLVED than a toe out of line from a class of beings that can have their memories scanned in court and be ordered to self-destruct? It seems instead that this social attitude (of relatively safe human dick) arises from anti-robot racism of a scale that BOGGLES the imagination.
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Re: 0148 - The Amelia Bedelia Factor

Postby Killjoy » Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:17 am

tenshiko wrote:But how is human dick perpetrator rape a MORE SOLVED problem than robot dick perpetrator rape? MORE SOLVED than a toe out of line from a class of beings that can have their memories scanned in court and be ordered to self-destruct? It seems instead that this social attitude (of relatively safe human dick) arises from anti-robot racism of a scale that BOGGLES the imagination.


We totally agree on the anti-robot racism in the depicted society -- what we haven't been shown is what event or problem along the way from now to then, what "future history", makes people in the setting THINK it's justified, if any.
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