0029 - Paid to Advertize

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0029 - Paid to Advertize

Postby dr pepper » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:58 am

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Re: 0029 - Paid to Advertize

Postby dr pepper » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:59 am

Oops, i guessed animal, not aid, but i was close. I wonder how many robots have similar scams going.
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Re: 0029 - Paid to Advertize

Postby Killjoy » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:13 pm

Zoa has more gumption than many humans I know now, in real life, without the babying of universal income.

She may be more of a person than some of the "people" in the "Forward" setting.
Likes his women like he likes his coffee... a little sweet, a little spicy, a little strong, a little earthy, a little smokey, totally honest, and maybe a little offended by being compared to a beverage.
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Re: 0029 - Paid to Advertize

Postby Merle » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:59 pm

Is it really a "scam" if both parties legitimately benefit?
Neither a creeper nor a jackass be; if you manage these two things, everything else should work itself out.
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Re: 0029 - Paid to Advertize

Postby Truec » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:42 pm

Huh. Weird universal income system. Adult bodily autonomy. Sex bots. Has this actually been taking place in Florenovia the entire time and I just didn't catch on?
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Re: 0029 - Paid to Advertize

Postby Deepbluediver » Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:36 am

I'm actually really interested in the world-building here. I want to find out if Lee is an anomaly, or there's an entire group that's like her.

Merle wrote:Is it really a "scam" if both parties legitimately benefit?

Good question- I'd be inclined to say that it's a "scam" if the benefit to either party is mis-represented, and/or there's significant amounts or coercion involved. Lee can in theory throw Zoa out of her apartment at any time, but she's shown herself to be very non-confrontational; almost child-like in fact. She might legally be an adult (who made that determination anyway?) but this feels kinda like one of those high-pressure sales pitches where Zoa is going to keep pushing until she gets a "yes".
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Re: 0029 - Paid to Advertize

Postby Merle » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:12 am

Deepbluediver wrote:I'm actually really interested in the world-building here. I want to find out if Lee is an anomaly, or there's an entire group that's like her.

Well, if anime is anything to go from, most of them would have been hit by trucks and reincarnated into fantasy worlds by now.

Merle wrote:Is it really a "scam" if both parties legitimately benefit?

Good question- I'd be inclined to say that it's a "scam" if the benefit to either party is mis-represented, and/or there's significant amounts or coercion involved. Lee can in theory throw Zoa out of her apartment at any time, but she's shown herself to be very non-confrontational; almost child-like in fact. She might legally be an adult (who made that determination anyway?) but this feels kinda like one of those high-pressure sales pitches where Zoa is going to keep pushing until she gets a "yes".


That's an aspect I really hadn't considered, and it's an important one. Zoa theoretically has no power here, but Lee's personality could well lend itself to emotional manipulation. But then again - just how much can you blame someone for just trying to be persuasive? Zoa isn't threatening Lee or trying to force them to do anything, except by talking. A minor lie of omission might have been made here, maybe, but then again Zoa didn't hide ulterior motives so much as wrap it all into a sales pitch.
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Re: 0029 - Paid to Advertize

Postby Deepbluediver » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:40 am

Merle wrote:But then again - just how much can you blame someone for just trying to be persuasive?

Good question- how much would you blame society for failing to protect themselves from being talked into doing something harmful? Not that I think this WOULD be harmful- I believe it's pretty clear that getting out of the house for a bit would do Lee a world of good. But it ties into the question of how much responsibility a person has for themselves. In modern society as we know it, you gain both more responsibility and more freedom as you grow older (or at least you should) and having one without the other tends to lead to problems IMO. In Lee's world though, she seems to have almost no responsibilities, so form whence comes freedom (to make legally binding decisions)?



Anyway, I really want to learn more about this world for a different reason now, too. After making my comment yesterday, I couldn't stop thinking about Tailsteak's line about Lee being "emotionally stunted" and Zoa being "single minded". It got me wondering what AI "childhood" is like, and while I'm sure it's a possibility that it's full of sunshine and puppies and rainbows, there's also room for quite a bit of psychological discomfort there, depending on exactly what Zoa's "mind" and/or programming are like.
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Re: 0029 - Paid to Advertize

Postby strange7person » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:28 am

Deepbluediver wrote: It got me wondering what AI "childhood" is like, and while I'm sure it's a possibility that it's full of sunshine and puppies and rainbows, there's also room for quite a bit of psychological discomfort there, depending on exactly what Zoa's "mind" and/or programming are like.

Basically there's three approaches to getting an AI to behave the way you want, and any design at all like Zoa (with lots of autonomy but no legal rights) would likely use a mix of them. First and simplest is immutable reflexive responses. Standard network protocols, low-level hardware management, failsafes designed to shut it all down if something goes seriously wrong, and anything else where creativity and development over time would be detrimental to the core function. Not much to say about that. Possible to build an AI with 100% deterministic responses, but that's a lot of work if the task is anything particularly interesting, and it might fail pathetically on a challenge the designer didn't perfectly anticipate.

Second is open-ended optimization toward a specified goal. Good example is Zoa's self-preservation, and compulsion to send money to the parent corporation. This could be combined with an initial period of uptime in a creche or structured training environment, to develop a minimal level of skill before making expensive mistakes out in the real world. That's the closest thing an AI is likely to get to a childhood. Like most non-human mammals, they're probably going to be capable of walking around and defending themselves from basic problems within hours of emerging into the world, functional adults (or at least equivalent to a human in late teens, since the goalposts for coming-of-age keep getting moved further and further out) inside a year or so.

Third is pre-optimized skills, capable of further improvement but bypassing the need for initial iterative refinement to basic competence. This is what Eliezer Yudkowsky and friends are working on. It's far safer, because human oversight at every step of the process mitigates the risk of the AI learning how to pursue it's goals in an antisocial or otherwise undesirable manner (i.e. killing us all and using the bodies as spare parts), downside being that it's vastly more work, and may not even be possible at all.
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