Can I preserve your opinion of me after a rape accusation?

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Can I preserve your opinion of me after a rape accusation?

Postby sparr » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:49 pm

You and I are acquainted. We speak to each other cordially and with some frequency. We invite each other to parties and social events. We are, by some measures, friends. A mutual friend of ours approaches you and says "Sparr raped me. Here's what happened. [...]". They give you a complete and honest account of what happened between us.

What details does that story need to include for you to conclude that I did not commit rape? This doesn't require you to share your conclusion with them, just to reach it.

Further, what details does it need to include for you to not change your opinion of me, shun me, ostracize me, punish me? (I ask this question separately because I have discovered that this is a much higher bar than the previous question, for some people)

PS: This is an attempt to reword the question "How can I have consensual sex?" in a way that produces more practically useful answers

PPS: I am not including any aspect of deception here. People lying makes this sort of stuff a LOT more complicated. I'd like to figure out how it works when everyone is telling the truth, for starters.
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Re: Can I preserve your opinion of me after a rape accusatio

Postby Drachefly » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:34 pm

Your framing makes the question really weird.

What can you do so that if your partner tried to frame it as rape, but told the truth, we'd have to scratch our heads and say 'Why are you calling that rape? By your own words, it wasn't even particularly rape-like.'

Anyway, safe steps:

1) No intoxication. Know your limits, know their limits as you judge them and as they judge them. Stay on the right side of all three.

2) No harassment or coercion. Don't whine, don't threaten.

3) Continually check for loss of enthusiasm. As the saying goes, it's "YES!" or "no." If your partner is either actively participating or provided non-revoked verbal consent to the specific act (doesn't need to be formal, but should have a clear scope), then you're in good shape. If your partner freezes or trails off, that's a warning sign; slow down and check what's up. Don't take big steps without some sort of clear OK, especially on a first time.

4) If asked to slow down, pause, or halt entirely, do so immediately and without complaint. If unsure what was said, err on the side of backing off and having to come back, rather than overstepping.
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Re: Can I preserve your opinion of me after a rape accusatio

Postby sparr » Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:56 pm

Drachefly wrote:Your framing makes the question really weird.
I've spent a lot of time working on how to frame this question. Any more-obvious way to ask what I'm trying to ask leads to people making ridiculous and often hypocritical assertions about fault and blame and feelings and consent.
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Re: Can I preserve your opinion of me after a rape accusatio

Postby Nepene » Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:06 am

For it to not be rape, you sought consent for them for sex without any intimidation or negative threat to get them into sex, with them being able to walk and talk as usual, stopped soon after they asked you to stop anything, and sought some form of additional consent for any substantial upgrades in sexual activity. You were honest proactively about sexual matters- condom use, stds and such- and honest about things you talked about or actions that would have led them into sex like your identity.

For me to preserve my opinion of you, you treated them in a respectful manner before and after and didn't violate any agreements or covenants during the act, and were generally honest about things that would have swayed them into sex, like your wealth and religion.
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Re: Can I preserve your opinion of me after a rape accusatio

Postby vvn » Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:51 pm

Nepene wrote:...
For me to preserve my opinion of you, you treated them in a respectful manner before and after and didn't violate any agreements or covenants during the act, and were generally honest about things that would have swayed them into sex, like your wealth and religion.

Wealth? So, if I say I'm rich, and you happily have sex with me, but I was lying, it becomes rape?
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Re: Can I preserve your opinion of me after a rape accusatio

Postby Nepene » Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:15 am

vvn wrote:
Nepene wrote:...
For me to preserve my opinion of you, you treated them in a respectful manner before and after and didn't violate any agreements or covenants during the act, and were generally honest about things that would have swayed them into sex, like your wealth and religion.

Wealth? So, if I say I'm rich, and you happily have sex with me, but I was lying, it becomes rape?


If you say you're rich that's probably just influencing your sexual activity, so no, that goes into category 2. If you explicitly agree to pay them and then refuse then it's more suspicious. You then had a sexual encounter that they didn't consent to, sex without payment.
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Re: Can I preserve your opinion of me after a rape accusatio

Postby sparr » Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:04 pm

vvn wrote:if I say I'm rich, and you happily have sex with me, but I was lying, it becomes rape?
Good question. Short answer: Yes. Longer answer: Yes, but much less far over the line than almost any other form of consent violation.

To elaborate, let me start with a simple concept. If I consent to sex with a condom, and you don't use a condom, you've violated my consent. Even if we remove pregnancy from the equation, there's still the matter of STD risk.

So, taking that a step further, what if you lie to me about your "obvious" STD risk factors? Tell me you've been tested when you haven't, etc. That's a similar violation of consent.

Now, a step further, non-obvious STD risk factors. Tell me that you're from Finland when you're really from Lesotho... That's WORSE than lying about testing or skipping a condom, in terms of STD risk.

Can wealth be put on that list? Sure. Wealthy people are less likely to have STDs. If your lie is small, the change is small, but if you're homeless and tell me you have a mansion in prague, that's a big difference.

I'm not saying STD risk is the only factor on which to judge a lie's effect on consent, it's just the easiest one to quantify, and a lie about wealth fits into a significant position on that scale.

PS: I hate that this question might drag this thread off topic, but I wanted to answer it thoroughly. I wish we had threading of comments here.
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Re: Can I preserve your opinion of me after a rape accusatio

Postby Tem » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:42 am

Interesting question. Now I finally understand why so many men are against consent, claiming it's unsexy or whatever.

The reason is they are all rapists.

I mean, just imagine full honesty was required by law.

"Hi! I don't like condoms, never get checked for STDs, and if you get pregnant, I will not pay child support. Also, I will tell everyone I had sex with you and that you are a slut. Want to have sex?"

The answer to that is going to be: "Hell, no!"

Some men really are so shitty human beings that no woman, if fully informed, would consent to sex with them. And I only mentioned the things that are directly relevant to sex and the risks involved!

No wonder they all whine "If I have to get consent, I will never get to have sex again!" - it is true!
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Re: Can I preserve your opinion of me after a rape accusatio

Postby Nepene » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:28 pm

sparr wrote:
vvn wrote:if I say I'm rich, and you happily have sex with me, but I was lying, it becomes rape?
Good question. Short answer: Yes. Longer answer: Yes, but much less far over the line than almost any other form of consent violation.

To elaborate, let me start with a simple concept. If I consent to sex with a condom, and you don't use a condom, you've violated my consent. Even if we remove pregnancy from the equation, there's still the matter of STD risk.

So, taking that a step further, what if you lie to me about your "obvious" STD risk factors? Tell me you've been tested when you haven't, etc. That's a similar violation of consent.

Now, a step further, non-obvious STD risk factors. Tell me that you're from Finland when you're really from Lesotho... That's WORSE than lying about testing or skipping a condom, in terms of STD risk.

Can wealth be put on that list? Sure. Wealthy people are less likely to have STDs. If your lie is small, the change is small, but if you're homeless and tell me you have a mansion in prague, that's a big difference.

I'm not saying STD risk is the only factor on which to judge a lie's effect on consent, it's just the easiest one to quantify, and a lie about wealth fits into a significant position on that scale.

PS: I hate that this question might drag this thread off topic, but I wanted to answer it thoroughly. I wish we had threading of comments here.


http://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/201 ... lease.html

On the risk level of poverty and stds.

Although I wouldn't define minor things like that as std style deceit. The average person isn't reasonably expected to know the statistics for at risk demographics, beyond drug users and men who have sex with men and maybe people who have sex in some african regions. They should know to bag it up.
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Re: Can I preserve your opinion of me after a rape accusatio

Postby Carnie » Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:33 pm

Nepene wrote:The average person isn't reasonably expected to know the statistics for at risk demographics, beyond drug users and men who have sex with men and maybe people who have sex in some african regions. They should know to bag it up.

Can somebody please explain to me why it is that men who have sex with men are more likely to have STDs than hetrosexual people who have an equal amount of sex (in a time later than the 1970s)? I've heard this in enough otherwise-reasonable contexts that I believe, or at least suspect, that it isn't just bigoted nonsense, but the reason why continues to baffle the everloving hell out of me.
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